<\/p>\n
You can also listen to this podcast on iono.fm here.<\/p>\n
JEREMY MAGGS: Now, you\u2019ll be well aware that eight women have now been found dead across parts of Gauteng, several in and around Kempton Park.<\/p>\n
Police say they are investigating whether any of the cases may be connected, but they have cautioned against rushing to conclusions about a single perpetrator at this point, saying investigators must first establish links through forensic, behavioural and investigative evidence.<\/p>\n
So how exactly is that done? I want to talk to Micki Pistorius, who is one of South Africa\u2019s best known investigative psychologists and a former profiler with the South African Police Service (SAPS).<\/p>\n
Now, she cannot comment specifically on the current investigation, but I\u2019m hoping she can help us understand more broadly the investigative protocols that should now be followed.<\/p>\n
Micki, a very warm welcome to you. When several apparently similar murders occur in a relatively concentrated area, what then is the first thing that investigators need to establish?<\/p>\n
MICKI PISTORIUS: Jeremy, in my time, that was an indication that a serial killer could be active, especially if there\u2019s a similarity in the victim profile, women of the same age and so on, and the geographical killing field would also be indication.<\/p>\n
Now, I understand their problem. I remember in the Phoenix serial killer case, which were the cane fields. There was a case of a man who killed his wife or his girlfriend, and he left her body there hoping that we would just count her as one of the serial killer\u2019s victims.<\/p>\n
However, an experienced detective or profiler can easily pick up if there\u2019s a copycat or somebody dumping a body, hoping it will be included in the count.<\/p>\n
For the rest, it is better if we do decide that it is a serial killer case, because then we get preferential treatment. Now, I am impressed that the police have established this task team, and it seems it was under the command of Major General Mbuso Khumalo, and that they are involving the investigative psychology unit.<\/p>\n
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As you know, I founded that unit 30 years ago, so it\u2019s strange how life just brings you back. I\u2019m not sure who are the profilers and if there are profilers at the moment. But you desperately do need a profiler in this case.<\/p>\n
JEREMY MAGGS: So if a profiler is brought in, how difficult is it to distinguish then between coincidence, genuinely linked crimes and potential copycat behaviour?<\/p>\n
MICKI PISTORIUS: I think the main task of the psychologists, or that\u2019s how I approached it was, if you have mass murderers \u2026 so you can have hostage takers, you can have robbers, terrorists, assassins and so on, and all of them can kidnap and kill people at different times, maybe the same location and so on, and there could be a cooling off period in between, but the difference here is the motive.<\/p>\n
Now, the serial killer has a very deep intrinsic psychological motive. It\u2019s not money, it\u2019s very deep inside that person and it\u2019s idiosyncratic.<\/p>\n
So it is essentially the job of the profiler to decipher that motive from the crime scene, from what you find at the crime scene and that is a good profile.<\/p>\n
It\u2019s not difficult, for people to say, well, it could be a man of this race, this age and so on, any detective can tell you that. But the deep psychological motive, there is a signature on a crime scene, a psychological signature, and that is what we need to look for.<\/p>\n
Of course, forensic evidence like DNA (deoxyribonucleic acid) is the first prize, there\u2019s no doubt about that. But that\u2019s not always possible. Bodies decompose or they\u2019re found in rivers, sometimes that could destroy some of their DNA.<\/p>\n
JEREMY MAGGS: And Micki, tell me, if you\u2019re constructing that signature, then typically what would you be looking for?<\/p>\n
MICKI PISTORIUS: Well, serial killers act out their fantasies.<\/p>\n
So on that crime scene, or looking at all of them together, you\u2019re supposed to try and figure out what is the fantasy behind this crime scene.<\/p>\n
They reenact the fantasy, but it\u2019s never perfect. Reality is not as perfect as your fantasy, and that\u2019s why they repeat it.<\/p>\n
Let\u2019s say if you\u2019re making a movie scene, something goes wrong, the actor can get up and they can replace them. But this time it\u2019s not a movie scene. They\u2019re dead. So he needs somebody new to reenact this fantasy. So that\u2019s important.<\/p>\n
Is it rage? Is it sadism? There\u2019s a big difference between violence and sadism.<\/p>\n
That was one of the \u2026 Moses Sithole was sadistic, Lazarus Mazingane was violent. There\u2019s a difference and that comes with experience that you can actually pick up on the crime scene.<\/p>\n
I think in a case like this, you do need an experienced profiler, and I almost want to say, I\u2019m available as a consultant, but let\u2019s see what they do.<\/p>\n
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JEREMY MAGGS: At what point then, and I\u2019m imagining it should be sooner rather than later, should investigators begin constructing that profile and bringing an expert such as yourself in? And once that process begins, Micki, what can it legitimately tell police versus what TV has taught us to think that it can tell them?<\/p>\n
MICKI PISTORIUS: Well, I would say after your second similar and definitely by your third similar, you need a profiler to come in. You can sometimes find progression.<\/p>\n
I remember in the Moses Sithole case, once we arranged the victims, not at the time that they were found, but at the time that they were killed, then we could see a progression in the fantasy, and I think that that comes with experience.<\/p>\n
At the moment, these victims are being listed by the number that they are found. That\u2019s wrong. They should be listed by the time that they were killed.<\/p>\n
These victims are dumped. Where are they being held? Where is he keeping them? Why is he dumping them? He\u2019s obviously moving around, so he has a vehicle. But I don\u2019t want to profile him, that\u2019s not my job.<\/p>\n
JEREMY MAGGS: I do understand that. What I do want to ask you, though, is there\u2019s a difficult communications dilemma here. Again, based on your experience, how much information should police release to help the public without, Micki, revealing details that only the offender would know or to contaminate future evidence?<\/p>\n
MICKI PISTORIUS: Yes, that\u2019s really important what you are saying there. You also asked what can the profile do, the profile usually as well includes an interrogation strategy based on that specific person. That is quite important, if you do a good profile. Then of course we cannot release all the evidence that we found in a crime scene.<\/p>\n
Sometimes I look at crime scene photographs now on social media and so on, and I think, well, how could this be released?<\/p>\n
People should take that into consideration, and accountability, police do not release crime scene photographs, because you can say, well, I saw it on social media.<\/p>\n
Don\u2019t take the chances of a conviction away by what I call synthetic sensationalism.<\/p>\n
Now, the police have warned the public, and I really appreciate that as well, though I can also understand the communities are up in arms and say, they\u2019re not protected. And they are not protected.<\/p>\n
I would say something like, if you get into a taxi, do not be the last person who gets out of the taxi. Most people have cell phones that they can put a phone tracker on, do that kind of thing. Do not walk alone. Keep with people. It is true that the government should protect you, but should also take responsibility.<\/p>\n
I don\u2019t blame any one of these victims that they became victims. Serial killers do not froth at the mouth. It could be anybody. It could be your neighbour. It could be anybody.<\/p>\n
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JEREMY MAGGS: Micki, practically as far as the investigation is concerned, as we know, bodies have been discovered days or even weeks apart. How do investigators make sure that crucial patterns aren\u2019t missed because perhaps the information is sitting in separate areas? Surely the coordination is critical, but that\u2019s also quite difficult to achieve, surely?<\/p>\n
MICKI PISTORIUS: Yes, I can just imagine the pressure that they are under at the moment. I was involved in about 30 serial killer cases. The pressure is enormous because you are working against time.<\/p>\n
The big thing is we would all like to have him arrested before he kills again. But he will kill again, there\u2019s no doubt that he\u2019s not going to stop.<\/p>\n
At the moment, they released where the crime scenes are, you see maps and so on. Now, he could either still kill in the same area or he could move. That depends on him. We don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n
There\u2019s a lot that somebody would not like to reveal to influence the killer. But the killer is not going to stop himself, unless he\u2019s arrested or this or that. But he will kill again and the public must be quite vigilant.<\/p>\n
I think this one uses a vehicle. Well, he can change vehicles. There\u2019s a lot of stuff going on in this investigation that I don\u2019t think is news to anybody with common sense. But it is extremely difficult because it\u2019s a stranger upon stranger. These victims did not know him.<\/p>\n
JEREMY MAGGS: Let me ask you one final question. Police, as I mentioned at the start of our conversation, are understandably reluctant to use the word serial killer. Do you believe that we have now crossed that threshold?<\/p>\n
MICKI PISTORIUS: I think so, yes. A day or two ago, I didn\u2019t. Well, I was reluctant, but I think at this stage, we have a body count of about eight.<\/p>\n
The first one was apparently allegedly killed by her boyfriend. But at this stage, I think yeah, I think they should, but that\u2019s up to them. I can\u2019t make decisions for them. But personally, yes, I think we are. But I can\u2019t make the decision for them.<\/p>\n
At this stage anyway, the public perception is completely that there is a serial killer out there, and I don\u2019t think they\u2019re far wrong.<\/p>\n
I don\u2019t think at this stage it really matters what the definition is or the this or the whatever is, let\u2019s just get on with the investigation, and I think they are getting on with the investigation.<\/p>\n
JEREMY MAGGS: Micki Pistorius, I\u2019m going to leave it there. Well-known South African forensic investigative psychologist. I do appreciate your time. Thank you.<\/p>\n
#kill #Micki #Pistorius #Gauteng #killings<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"
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