John Steenhuisen on trade and industry, and his relationship with Geordin Hill-Lewis

You can also listen to this podcast on iono.fm here.

This interview was originally aired on RSG Geldsake in Afrikaans. The transcript below has been translated into English.

RYK VAN NIEKERK: John Steenhuisen is the new Deputy Minister of the Department of Trade, Industry and Competition. He has been in this role since the beginning of the month – just over two weeks.

Prior to this, he was the Minister of Agriculture, before Geordin Hill-Lewis, the leader of the DA, made changes to the party’s cabinet members. John, a very warm welcome to the programme.

It has been a turbulent time for you and the DA. We can chat about that a bit later, but how are you doing at the moment?

JOHN STEEHUISEN: Yes, I’m doing very well, thank you. I’ve been incredibly busy. I took some time off to go fishing with my father and to see my young daughter catch her first fish in Durban, which was wonderful.

But now I’m back in the office and busy on the road, making sure we can grow our economy and generate more money for South Africa and South Africans.

RYK VAN NIEKERK: Yes, indeed. The Department of Trade, Industry and Competition is surely one of the most important departments in government. It is the department responsible for ensuring the economy grows – and it is not growing.

I noticed you made your first public speech and mentioned that there are plenty of opportunities in our manufacturing sector, and that we can bring industries back. But how do you view the challenges ahead of you in that department’s portfolio?

JOHN STEEHUISEN: Yes, I think there are excellent opportunities to make a difference.

You are entirely correct: our economy is not growing enough.

The direction is right, but the growth isn’t substantial enough to improve things, and there are far too many people in this country still looking for job opportunities.

So we have to grow our economy.

I think part of my job at the new department will be to work alongside the industries to identify the stumbling blocks, and to see what we can do from the government’s side to cut through the red tape and create an easier environment for business and industry to thrive in South Africa.

I think we have struggled for the last decade or so with electricity problems, but there are other obstacles that must be cleared out of the way to ensure we can make a difference and see our economy grow. And this must involve close cooperation with the private sector.

There is no way the government can do manufacturing on its own. There is no way the government can create job opportunities without a partnership with the private sector – understanding from them what the problems are and what they need from the government to create a better business environment within South Africa.

RYK VAN NIEKERK: Look, the perspective you’ve just shared is something we regularly hear from the president, [Finance] Minister Enoch Godongwana, and [National] Treasury. But if one looks at the legislation in place, it tells a completely different story.

The South African private sector is one of the most heavily regulated in the world. You can’t move without having to fill out a blue or a yellow form, or comply with various things.

Is there an understanding within the department that the regulations and legislation are the primary reasons our economy isn’t growing?

Because businesses aren’t investing out of fear of over-regulation.

JOHN STEEHUISEN: That is completely correct. There are too many forms and too much red tape in government standing in the way of business in South Africa.

I think this is due to the fact that for the last 30 years we have had a specific ideology coming from a single-party government driven by the ANC, the SACP [South African Communist Party] and Cosatu [Congress of South African Trade Unions].

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I think what the GNU [government of national unity] gives us now, for the first time in 30 years, is a chance to bring other party perspectives to the table.

I see my role within the department not just as carrying on with what has been happening for the last 30 years, but to identify those exact stumbling blocks alongside the private sector, industrialists, and manufacturers in South Africa, and ask what we as a government can do to make things easier.

This is exactly what I did with our industry within the agricultural sector, which is how we secured more markets for South African products by clearing those obstacles out of the way.

I see my role not just as a parrot repeating what has happened over the last 30 years, but as a new voice around the table saying we must do things differently.

If we don’t do things differently, we will get the same results.

Nobody can be happy with the current state of our economy, the state of manufacturing, and the state of industry in South Africa.

More must be done, and I see my role there as kicking that door open to ensure we can move forward with new numbers and an easier business environment in South Africa.

RYK VAN NIEKERK: If we look at the saying – I don’t know if it’s a proverb or just a saying – that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome.

Now, we’ve been going down a certain policy path for 30 years, and it is very clear that it isn’t working; the economy isn’t growing. Do you foresee policy changes on the horizon because of the government of national unity specifically focusing on trade and industry? Or will the focus rather be on regulations, which are presumably easier to change?

JOHN STEEHUISEN: No, I think there is a new direction within the GNU.

I think there is an acknowledgement of what has – or rather, what hasn’t – happened over the last 20 to 30 years.

There is a reason we are sitting with one of the highest unemployment rates in the world.

There is a reason we are sitting with the lowest economic growth in the world, and it is the fact that we pursued the wrong policies.

I think there is now an understanding within the GNU that if we go back to the voters of South Africa in 2029 and show them the progress we have made over the last five years, we must have something on the table to prove it. If we just carry on with the same policies and regulations that have been there for the last 30 years, we will have no progress on the table to show people.

So I think there is now an urgent need within the GNU to show progress very quickly.

The only and best way that can happen is through reform, new policies, and new regulations within our economic sectors in South Africa. It is the easiest way to explain to people: ‘This is the progress; this is the change. Give us another five years to make more progress.’

If we don’t do this, we open the door for parties like the MK [uMkhonto weSizwe Party] and the EFF [Economic Freedom Fighters] to offer something to the voters of South Africa.

I think it would have disastrous consequences for South Africa if we cannot make a strong case before the upcoming election in 2029 about what we have achieved and what we still want to do.

RYK VAN NIEKERK: One of the biggest policy differences between the DA and the ANC is black economic empowerment [BEE]. The DA’s policy is that it should be scrapped, and the ANC says ‘Over our dead body’. How do you see this playing out, because I am certain you will be beating that drum?

JOHN STEEHUISEN: I think there is a faction within the ANC that sees the need for reform. What people say on public platforms and what actually happens – and what they realise behind closed doors – are often two different things.

Yes, there are ideological people within the ANC, but there are also people in the ANC’s economic sector who believe we cannot carry on like this.

If you have a policy, you shouldn’t just look at its intent; you have to look at its results.

Anyone who can put two and two together can see that we have very few black people participating in the economy as a result of this policy.

Instead, a very small group of people have become filthy rich because of these policies.

If we want to bring more people into the economy, we must have change to empower black economic participation. That’s why we are proceeding with our parliamentary bill to change things.

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But I also think that, like everything else in the GNU, we have to find consensus and make compromises. That is the job of a coalition.

There is no way the ANC can just carry on saying ‘our policies remain the policies of the country’. That’s not how a coalition works.

There has to be change, and there has to be a bit of give and take within the GNU.

I think that is where the opportunity lies to bring reforms and changes into the economic sector and into these policies.

Yes, the DA won’t get everything we want, but equally, the ANC won’t get everything they want either. That is because we are in a coalition where we must cooperate, listen to one another, and find a middle ground that brings people together.

RYK VAN NIEKERK: From the outside it might not always look like it plays out that way, but I think that is the whole point of a coalition – there has to be give and take. But perhaps that is a topic for another day.

Parks Tau is the minister of your department. Have you met with him yet, and how is your relationship?

JOHN STEEHUISEN: I think there are examples – for instance, the WTO [World Trade Organisation] dispute – where a middle ground was found because we have a GNU.

I think the White Paper on Immigration that [Home Affairs] Minister Leon Schreiber brought forward is another example.

I have a very good relationship with Minister Parks Tau. I have worked very well with him.

We had to work together in partnership to open up markets, discuss tariffs, and find agreements while I was the minister of agriculture. So I think I will work very well with him.

But I say again: I am not just there to be a parrot. I have my own opinions, I have my own ideas, and I won’t be shy to put them on the table.

I think anyone who has worked with me over the last 25 years that I’ve been in politics will tell you that I am not a person who hides my words under the table. I am very clear about where I stand on things and what my position is.

RYK VAN NIEKERK: You were redeployed to this department from the Department of Agriculture. The previous deputy minister in this department was also a DA minister who was moved. Why didn’t that work out? Can you leap over that hurdle to be more effective?

JOHN STEEHUISEN: Yes, I think so. I think I have a personality that can get things done.

I think that has already been proven by the great progress we made in opening up markets and exporting our agricultural products, and bringing a new policy direction within that department.

I am a former party leader. I have been in politics for 25 years and I think there is a difference between me and perhaps other people who went before. I will use that experience to make sure I can make and show progress to the voters and the people of South Africa through the work I will do as deputy minister.

Yes, I wasn’t happy to be moved from agriculture, but that’s how politics works. The leader made the decision for his own reasons.

Whether I agree with those reasons or not is beside the point. It was his decision, just as it was my decision in the past to make changes to my own cabinet ministers.

But I will do my best to grow our economy and do my job there, just as I have done in every position where I’ve been given the opportunity to lead and make a difference. I will do the same within this new department.

RYK VAN NIEKERK: What is your relationship now with Geordin Hill-Lewis, the leader of the DA?

JOHN STEEHUISEN: Yes, he is the leader of the party. I respect his position as leader.

But I think, just like in any political party in the world, people will have differences of opinion and differ in how they view the world. That is how politics works perhaps in every political party other than North Korea, where everyone has to think the same.

But I think it is a healthy thing in a party to have differing opinions. When those opinions come together, a party is the place to talk those things through. It is a good thing.

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It wouldn’t be realistic or serious if there were never any differences between people in a political party.

But we are getting on with the work. We have 3.5 million voters to look after, to ensure we put their interests on the table every day. That is where the work lies, and that is the priority we are busy with.

It doesn’t matter how we personally feel about things.

We have a job to do to save this country from the consequences of 30 years of poor governance, maladministration, and corruption. That is the priority.

RYK VAN NIEKERK: I think it is more than just a difference of opinion and an internal debate within the DA. In your interview with Adriaan Basson of News24, you said there was improper access by Tony Leon and his communications company to DA ministers.

This was seized upon by opposition parties who called it an example of ‘state capture’, which put the DA in a very negative light – especially since the DA positions itself as the honest and ethical party. What do you think of the impact of those remarks on the party?

JOHN STEEHUISEN: In that interview I said very clearly that the DA did nothing wrong, and I said very clearly that nothing illegal happened.

My issue was that the very same company trying to lobby DA ministers on policy and other matters was running a campaign against me regarding the foot-and-mouth disease outbreak.

They were egging on clients and running a very major campaign against me.

That was my concern – that you have a company working with us on one hand, but working against us on the other.

So I made it very clear that there was nothing unlawful happening.

My issue was the fact that a company with so much influence within the DA was actively campaigning against one of the DA’s own ministers. I think that was unhealthy.

RYK VAN NIEKERK: Still, I think it damaged the party, and the public perception is that there is friction within the party – specifically between you and Geordin Hill-Lewis. How do you view that perception versus the reality?

JOHN STEEHUISEN: I think there may well be those perceptions but, as I’ve already said, Geordin is the leader. I am the deputy minister of this department, and I am busy with my work. I report to him and the other cabinet members and deputy ministers every Friday.

But the fact remains: I think it is unhealthy to have a company managed by a former leader wielding that kind of influence, because we saw what happened in my case, where they ran a very severe campaign against me. It did great damage to me and to public perceptions of me.

I think I was entirely within my rights to express my unhappiness about it.

Again, as I said in the interview, there is nothing wrong with what anyone in the DA had done, but I think there is a need for us to look at what we can put in place to ensure that the influence of people outside the party – who want to get involved in the internal politics of the DA – does not affect the inner workings of the party.

RYK VAN NIEKERK: The company is Resolve Communications, and Tony Leon is involved there. But have you since had a meeting with Geordin Hill-Lewis, and did you shake hands?

JOHN STEENHUISEN: I have taken the last week off, so I haven’t seen him recently, but I see him every Friday when we meet as cabinet ministers.

I can honestly say that it would be unrealistic to pretend there isn’t a bit of strain on the friendship, but friendship doesn’t matter here. It is the professional work we must do together that counts.

As I’ve already said, we have a job to do to ensure we put our voters’ interests on the table, and we work every day to make South Africa a better place for all our people and to rescue our economy.

That is the work that brings us together.

A party is not just a social club; serious work has to be done. It doesn’t matter who is friends and who isn’t – the work is the priority, and that is what I am focused on.

RYK VAN NIEKERK: John, thank you very much. That was John Steenhuisen, the Deputy Minister of the Department of Trade, Industry and Competition.

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